1. How does Tolkien (1964) define fantasy Compare and contrast this to the other definitions from last week’s reader.
2. Is Tolkien’s notion of the ‘faery story’ linked to fantasy genre? How closely?
3. What parallels can you find between A Wizard of Earthsea and the Harry Potter franchise?
4. What other influences does Burn (2005) suggest for Harry Potter?
5. How does the fantasy genre relate to modern media such as video games?
6. Why does the religious right in the US condemn fantasy, according to Cockrell (2004)? On what grounds does Cockrell defend fantasy literature, using Harry Potter as example?
Hi, all I’d like to talk about question 1 first. According to Tolkien (1964), fantasy is derived from the image, embrace both the sub-creative art in itself and a quality of strangeness and wonder in the expression.(p.45) The images of things are not present even not to be found in the primary world. Tolkien points out that fantasy is a higher, the most pure and potent form of Art. The advantage of fantasy is arresting strangeness and meddling with the primary world; while the disadvantage of it is that it is hard to achieve “the inner consistency of reality”. As a result, fantasy is frequently remains undeveloped and it remains “fanciful” only. From Tolkien’s view, fantasy is the Art that best left to words, to true literature. It’s hard to express through painting, and it’s hardly ever succeeds in drama. Moreover, fantasy is a natural human activity and it does not blur the perception of scientific verity. However, fantasy can be over-used and can be ill done by putting it to evil uses.
As for question 2, I think that Tolkien's notion of the "fairy story" linked to fantasy genre closely. According to Tolkien (1964), fantasy is a quality essential to fairy-story. There are three faces in fairy-stories: “the Mystical towards the Supernatural; the Magical towards Nature; and the Mirror of scorn and pity towards Man”, and the Magical which is the essence of fantasy is the essential face of Faerie.
i agree with you on the first question.According to Tolkein(1964),he states that Fantasy is a "higher form of Art and also the most potent".(pg45).I think fantasy can be defined in may ways.As grace mentioned about sub creativity, I think people who write about fantasy must be creative in their own imagination.Certain fantasy doesnt exist in this normal world but in a different world for example The lord of the rings.But there are some which are related to the primary world such as Harry Porter.I think Attbery;s preception of fantasy is quite different from tolkien's defination.Attebery states fantasy is like a science fiction.He even says that In fantasy "we explore in the unknown and that interest alone can carry an otherwise undistinguished work"(pg 4). I think there is a slight difference between tolkiens ideas as he writes more on creativy and imagination..
Hi, guys~ I agree with your comments Grace and Deli~
At the beginning of Tolkien's article, i felt that there would be differences between Tolkien's and Attbery's definition for fantasy but as Deli mentioned it is just slight difference- I think the basic concept of'fantasy'for both of them is pretty similar ^^;;
They both said that it's the imaginative world and according to Tolkien the fantasy is the imagination that derived from the notion of 'unreality' - 'unlikeness to the primary world' (p.45) but they are very logical (p.51) which i really agree-
For question 2, i agree with what Grace said- I also think Tolkien's notion of 'faery story' is closely linked to fantasy.
The faery stories also 'an unreal or incredible story' (p.10)which is definately same as fantasy-
And one more thing, as i read the article it reminded me again one of the common(special) targets for faery story and fantasy - 'children' : natural connection between the minds of children and fairy-stories(p.34) and also fantasy??! Accroding to Tolkien, it is usually assumed that children are the natural or the specially appropriate audience for fairy stories (p.33) which i think for fantasy as well - for example 'The Wizard of Earthsea and especailly with Harry Potter'!. ^^*
What u guys think? (I think it could be bit out of topic....kkk)
Hi everyone. I want to talk about question 5. I think the influential of fantasy genre to modern media such as video games is quite huge because a lot of games are designed from fantasy fiction or movie such as Lord of the ring or Harry Potter. After showing the new fantasy movie and if that movie is popular, game designer want to create the game that is based on that fantasy movie. What I want to mention here is RPG (role playing game). From this role playing game, people can choose character that they like from the movie, which means they can be a that character and experience fantasy world.
I think that is the reasons why people like to play fantasy game and I also think especially people who already see or read the movie and book more want to play the game based on the story that already knew.
For the question 3, there are some similarities between A Wizard of Earthsea and the Harry Potter. Both Ged and Harry are orphan, they both found their abilities of magical power when they are young before going to school. Moreover, they went to school where is different from other normal schools and can learn magic. Both of them have their supporter like Ron and Vetch and have a good mentor in school ( I don’t remember their name). Lastly, they fight with enemies and they are hero in the story.
I think the reason why these two stories have the similarities although they are different sub- genre fantasy is because of fantasy structure like there is always a supporter of the main character something like this.
I agree with what Hanna said about question 2. However, I am not sure Harry Potter is for children becuase a lot of adult readers are crazy about the Harry Potter. According to Cockrell (2004), US fundamentalist Christian parents believes that fantasy equals deceit, that fantasy and story telling "will lead to lying and other deceitful behavior" and this factor combines with the necessity "to protect their children from evil forces in the fantasy world" (p,25)
For question 2, i wanted to say " the children are one of the common targets" for the fantasy and fairy story - Of course 'fantasy' targets for both adults and children and there are huge number of children fans for Harry Potter as well as adults~ ^^;;
I agree with what Kirsty says for question 5. I think the relationship between fantasy genre and modern media, like video games, is inevitable results. Not only because of intertextuality, books to films, but also interactivity of the games - like 'being Harry' or 'being Ron' as playing games. As we talked in the lecture, this is because people wants more virtulised stuffs as time goes by which provide much fun-
I want to add bit more ideas to Kirsty's answer for question 6.
According to Cockrell (2004), christians say that Harry Potter is a 'manual for the evil arts' (p.25) especailly for children- For example, they said that it is reading of such a 'satanic material', leading young kids for the antichrist and the vivid colors used in the novels are the precise colors witches use etc. Also, they think Harry Potter books encourge children to rebel against their parents (p.26)
However, Cockrell justifies "Harry Potter" as fantasy literature.
First of all, most of the great works of juvenile literature are subversive : they express ideas or emotions not generally approved of or even recognized at the time - they make fun. (p.26) Secondly, Rowling used the structure of 'low fantasy' to give more reality flavor to readers - "Harry lives in our world" comparing with Tolkien's works. (p.25) And also, it is logical - "facts stay still" :"If art may make the unreal real, it may also disguise the real as fiction, and teach witchcraft in the guise of fantasy! (p.28) -
I think both of these fantasy story share many common features as kristy mentioned about Ged and harry porter.I think even the these to characters learnt all the spells from different teachers,even they talked about changing weird creatures,dragons were also involved and many others as well.The only thing i realised that Harry porter had many friends such as hermoine, ron and his other fellow classmates.and all of them learnt how 2 play magic.whereas in earthsea Ged was only surrounded with few people for istance the witch,the magician who thought him the spells and also the girl..i think these two fantasy fiction are quite similar to each other but also have its own differences...
Hey hanna and kristy i also agree with what you have to say on question 5.I think now the media has changed alot and movies/books of fantasy fiction has developed in to more hi tech form for instance video games.for example, i have seen fantasy fiction such as lord of the rings,Narnia and Harry porter that are now created in to the gaming world.it comes as a Pc game or Ps2 game.I think this is an interesting way to catch people's attention especially to young children or young adults.I think by playing it like a game,they can control the players and they can also be part of this fantasy world.I think this seems to be quite a popular approach instead of reading or watching it in the cinema.I think children and some adults might find this more fasinating...this is my idea so far=)
Oh ya, As for question 5, I think the games that have been created are also interesitng as they include interesting features.According to Burn(2005) he explains that in the Harry Porter game there are many maps,puzzle-sloving,magical objects,quests and so on.I think this is really cool especially for children and it also helps trained your mind on how to solve different puzzles or situations in different stages.
As for question 4, I think i have found out a few ideas that Burn has suggested about the influences of harry porter.I think firstly, we do know that most kids love magic.According to Burn(2005), he states that this idea of magic may not exist without a cultural experience of magic as it is an element in chlidren's narrative.He also states that"What it offers is by way of solution to the problems of real life".Thefore these magical stuff can grab a child's attention and also can be helpful in some way. One other area would be the level of English.In harry porter, According to Burn(2005), he suggest that "The grammar of media literacy needs to be considered in tande with the cultures of the media".I think language also play a huge part in fantasy fiction.Its how the words that have been written can be easily understood and could also relate to each reader especially children. What do u all think??
Hi, Kirsty I agree with your opinion about that fantasy genres are influencing the modern media such as video games noticeable because a lot of games are designed from fantasy fiction or movie such as Lord of the ring or Harry Potter. On the other hand, I think that the structures of fantasy are influenced by the images and practices of video-games, such as lists, maps, puzzle-solving ways and game survival. As Burn, A (2005) states, Harry Potter novels are rooted in the contemporary moment; there are structures like quests, magical objects, helpers, monster opponents, a bounded fantasy world, a puzzle dynamic in Potter stories, which are the kinds of structures that make good games. Therefore, I think the relationship between fantasy genre and modern media such as video games are close and they are interactive.
As for question 6, I agree with Kirsty and Hanna’s points, as Hanna cites from Cockrell (2006), Christian think Harry Potter books encourage children to rebel against their parents ( p26). According to Cockrell, there are some reasons lead to the religious right in the US condemn fantasy. Firstly, the Harry Potter books are extremely popular, they pervade everywhere; secondly, the censorship shifts to occult change people’s focus on the religious right. Some parents think that fantasy is deceit which will cause deceitful behaviours; they believe that Potter books teach witchcraft that has power to change children’s beliefs and values; the detractors also criticize that Harry Potter “is not literature at all, but a manual for the evil arts” (p25) in that the story happens too close to the real world, which can highly influence children’s world view and life view.
17 comments:
1. How does Tolkien (1964) define fantasy Compare and contrast this to the other definitions from last week’s reader.
2. Is Tolkien’s notion of the ‘faery story’ linked to fantasy genre? How closely?
3. What parallels can you find between A Wizard of Earthsea and the Harry Potter franchise?
4. What other influences does Burn (2005) suggest for Harry Potter?
5. How does the fantasy genre relate to modern media such as video games?
6. Why does the religious right in the US condemn fantasy, according to Cockrell (2004)? On what grounds does Cockrell defend fantasy literature, using Harry Potter as example?
Hi, all
I’d like to talk about question 1 first.
According to Tolkien (1964), fantasy is derived from the image, embrace both the sub-creative art in itself and a quality of strangeness and wonder in the expression.(p.45) The images of things are not present even not to be found in the primary world. Tolkien points out that fantasy is a higher, the most pure and potent form of Art. The advantage of fantasy is arresting strangeness and meddling with the primary world; while the disadvantage of it is that it is hard to achieve “the inner consistency of reality”. As a result, fantasy is frequently remains undeveloped and it remains “fanciful” only. From Tolkien’s view, fantasy is the Art that best left to words, to true literature. It’s hard to express through painting, and it’s hardly ever succeeds in drama. Moreover, fantasy is a natural human activity and it does not blur the perception of scientific verity. However, fantasy can be over-used and can be ill done by putting it to evil uses.
As for question 2, I think that Tolkien's notion of the "fairy story" linked to fantasy genre closely. According to Tolkien (1964), fantasy is a quality essential to fairy-story. There are three faces in fairy-stories: “the Mystical towards the Supernatural; the Magical towards Nature; and the Mirror of scorn and pity towards Man”, and the Magical which is the essence of fantasy is the essential face of Faerie.
That's my thinking only, what do you guys think?
Hi grace,
i agree with you on the first question.According to Tolkein(1964),he states that Fantasy is a "higher form of Art and also the most potent".(pg45).I think fantasy can be defined in may ways.As grace mentioned about sub creativity, I think people who write about fantasy must be creative in their own imagination.Certain fantasy doesnt exist in this normal world but in a different world for example The lord of the rings.But there are some which are related to the primary world such as Harry Porter.I think Attbery;s preception of fantasy is quite different from tolkien's defination.Attebery states fantasy is like a science fiction.He even says that In fantasy "we explore in the unknown and that interest alone can carry an otherwise undistinguished work"(pg 4).
I think there is a slight difference between tolkiens ideas as he writes more on creativy and imagination..
What do u all think??
Hi, guys~
I agree with your comments Grace and Deli~
At the beginning of Tolkien's article, i felt that there would be differences between Tolkien's and Attbery's definition for fantasy but as Deli mentioned it is just slight difference-
I think the basic concept of'fantasy'for both of them is pretty similar ^^;;
They both said that it's the imaginative world and according to Tolkien the fantasy is the imagination that derived from the notion of 'unreality' - 'unlikeness to the primary world' (p.45) but they are very logical (p.51) which i really agree-
For question 2, i agree with what Grace said-
I also think Tolkien's notion of 'faery story' is closely linked to fantasy.
The faery stories also 'an unreal or incredible story' (p.10)which is definately same as fantasy-
And one more thing, as i read the article it reminded me again one of the common(special) targets for faery story and fantasy - 'children' : natural connection between the minds of children and fairy-stories(p.34) and also fantasy??!
Accroding to Tolkien, it is usually assumed that children are the natural or the specially appropriate audience for fairy stories (p.33) which i think for fantasy as well - for example 'The Wizard of Earthsea and especailly with Harry Potter'!. ^^*
What u guys think?
(I think it could be bit out of topic....kkk)
Hi everyone.
I want to talk about question 5. I think the influential of fantasy genre to modern media such as video games is quite huge because a lot of games are designed from fantasy fiction or movie such as Lord of the ring or Harry Potter. After showing the new fantasy movie and if that movie is popular, game designer want to create the game that is based on that fantasy movie. What I want to mention here is RPG (role playing game). From this role playing game, people can choose character that they like from the movie, which means they can be a that character and experience fantasy world.
I think that is the reasons why people like to play fantasy game and I also think especially people who already see or read the movie and book more want to play the game based on the story that already knew.
For the question 3, there are some similarities between A Wizard of Earthsea and the Harry Potter. Both Ged and Harry are orphan, they both found their abilities of magical power when they are young before going to school. Moreover, they went to school where is different from other normal schools and can learn magic. Both of them have their supporter like Ron and Vetch and have a good mentor in school ( I don’t remember their name). Lastly, they fight with enemies and they are hero in the story.
I think the reason why these two stories have the similarities although they are different sub- genre fantasy is because of fantasy structure like there is always a supporter of the main character something like this.
I agree with what Hanna said about question 2. However, I am not sure Harry Potter is for children becuase a lot of adult readers are crazy about the Harry Potter. According to Cockrell (2004), US fundamentalist Christian parents believes that fantasy equals deceit, that fantasy and story telling "will lead to lying and other deceitful behavior" and this factor combines with the necessity "to protect their children from evil forces in the fantasy world" (p,25)
For question 2, i wanted to say " the children are one of the common targets" for the fantasy and fairy story - Of course 'fantasy' targets for both adults and children and there are huge number of children fans for Harry Potter as well as adults~ ^^;;
I agree with what Kirsty says for question 5. I think the relationship between fantasy genre and modern media, like video games, is inevitable results. Not only because of intertextuality, books to films, but also interactivity of the games - like 'being Harry' or 'being Ron' as playing games.
As we talked in the lecture, this is because people wants more virtulised stuffs as time goes by which provide much fun-
I want to add bit more ideas to Kirsty's answer for question 6.
According to Cockrell (2004), christians say that Harry Potter is a 'manual for the evil arts' (p.25) especailly for children-
For example, they said that it is reading of such a 'satanic material', leading young kids for the antichrist and the vivid colors used in the novels are the precise colors witches use etc.
Also, they think Harry Potter books encourge children to rebel against their parents (p.26)
However, Cockrell justifies "Harry Potter" as fantasy literature.
First of all, most of the great works of juvenile literature are subversive : they express ideas or emotions not generally approved of or even recognized at the time - they make fun. (p.26)
Secondly, Rowling used the structure of 'low fantasy' to give more reality flavor to readers - "Harry lives in our world" comparing with Tolkien's works. (p.25)
And also, it is logical - "facts stay still" :"If art may make the unreal real, it may also disguise the real as fiction, and teach witchcraft in the guise of fantasy! (p.28) -
Hi gals, i agree with u kristy on question 3
I think both of these fantasy story share many common features as kristy mentioned about Ged and harry porter.I think even the these to characters learnt all the spells from different teachers,even they talked about changing weird creatures,dragons were also involved and many others as well.The only thing i realised that Harry porter had many friends such as hermoine, ron and his other fellow classmates.and all of them learnt how 2 play magic.whereas in earthsea Ged was only surrounded with few people for istance the witch,the magician who thought him the spells and also the girl..i think these two fantasy fiction are quite similar to each other but also have its own differences...
Hey hanna and kristy i also agree with what you have to say on question 5.I think now the media has changed alot and movies/books of fantasy fiction has developed in to more hi tech form for instance video games.for example, i have seen fantasy fiction such as lord of the rings,Narnia and Harry porter that are now created in to the gaming world.it comes as a Pc game or Ps2 game.I think this is an interesting way to catch people's attention especially to young children or young adults.I think by playing it like a game,they can control the players and they can also be part of this fantasy world.I think this seems to be quite a popular approach instead of reading or watching it in the cinema.I think children and some adults might find this more fasinating...this is my idea so far=)
Oh ya, As for question 5, I think the games that have been created are also interesitng as they include interesting features.According to Burn(2005) he explains that in the Harry Porter game there are many maps,puzzle-sloving,magical objects,quests and so on.I think this is really cool especially for children and it also helps trained your mind on how to solve different puzzles or situations in different stages.
Hey gals
As for question 4, I think i have found out a few ideas that Burn has suggested about the influences of harry porter.I think firstly, we do know that most kids love magic.According to Burn(2005), he states that this idea of magic may not exist without a cultural experience of magic as it is an element in chlidren's narrative.He also states that"What it offers is by way of solution to the problems of real life".Thefore these magical stuff can grab a child's attention and also can be helpful in some way.
One other area would be the level of English.In harry porter, According to Burn(2005), he suggest that "The grammar of media literacy needs to be considered in tande with the cultures of the media".I think language also play a huge part in fantasy fiction.Its how the words that have been written can be easily understood and could also relate to each reader especially children. What do u all think??
Hi, Kirsty
I agree with your opinion about that fantasy genres are influencing the modern media such as video games noticeable because a lot of games are designed from fantasy fiction or movie such as Lord of the ring or Harry Potter. On the other hand, I think that the structures of fantasy are influenced by the images and practices of video-games, such as lists, maps, puzzle-solving ways and game survival. As Burn, A (2005) states, Harry Potter novels are rooted in the contemporary moment; there are structures like quests, magical objects, helpers, monster opponents, a bounded fantasy world, a puzzle dynamic in Potter stories, which are the kinds of structures that make good games. Therefore, I think the relationship between fantasy genre and modern media such as video games are close and they are interactive.
As for question 6, I agree with Kirsty and Hanna’s points, as Hanna cites from Cockrell (2006), Christian think Harry Potter books encourage children to rebel against their parents ( p26). According to Cockrell, there are some reasons lead to the religious right in the US condemn fantasy. Firstly, the Harry Potter books are extremely popular, they pervade everywhere; secondly, the censorship shifts to occult change people’s focus on the religious right. Some parents think that fantasy is deceit which will cause deceitful behaviours; they believe that Potter books teach witchcraft that has power to change children’s beliefs and values; the detractors also criticize that Harry Potter “is not literature at all, but a manual for the evil arts” (p25) in that the story happens too close to the real world, which can highly influence children’s world view and life view.
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